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Perfect. Be carefull with the running in procedure, especially with the oil/oils you are going to use, it's the most critical period of your new engine, then comes the new map.
 

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FYI Roger...

View attachment 14521

Filling the oil pump, evacuating the air...
Thank you, well Themis I thought I had seen it all, until I viewed your YouTube clip, I still cant believe what I've seen, I will say this, it's good to see oil going in, but that's certainly one hell of a unique way to prime the oil pump, in one way I'm glad that's your engine and not mine, but I cringed when I saw what you were doing and have done, worryingly scary Themis.

Why didn't you just prime it, (not crank) pack it, replace sump, turn engine upright, install engine, and just before your ready to crank (no ignition) but with spark plugs installed fill with your initial oil, then crank without ignition ?

All that oil you've primed the pump with, will now drain away, in the time before your ready to crank with the engine installed, unless you packed the pump after your unique way of priming!
 

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Themis
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Discussion Starter #466 (Edited)
Roger how do you evacuate the air trapped into the oiling system? do you wait for the air to escape on the initial startup?

After filling the oil filter and pump with fresh oil, the pump was rotated until all the air escaped from the engine. FYI there was a lot of air trapped in, especially inside the oil squirters. Then the engine was rotated in upright position and the oil pump was packed. What exactly is worryingly scary Roger? I would like some clarification please...
I am glad this engine is mine and not yours and I am very confident that on the initial startup the engine will slide like silk...

I am worried a lot on the first start up, especially knowing that the EGT in open loop is 700oC. You can imagine what's happening then with the internals. What if the oil squirters are not full of oil and spray immediately the back of the pistons? Oiling the crank is also vital etc. The first four-five short cranks without spark plugs of course are vital as well. Not going to let the engine start...having the air escaped is making the whole process less worrying...
 

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The oil squirters spraying at the initial startup is the last thing you should pay attention, not important.

When you fire the engine for first time (after you crank it without spark plugs until there is oil everywhere), first thing listen for any kind of strange noises, immediately shut off if you hear something (i didn't even have to tell you, i know). If everything sounds ok, and you have a A/F meter, let it idle until you see o2 is heated and working, take it out for a drive. Watch the oil pressure carefully (i guess you gave a gauge). As your pistons are 4032 alloy and require tight clearence, avoid the "beat it" running in way, be gentle for the first few thousand kms. Don't let the running in oil for long, max 500km.
 

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New engine tolerances:
(Blown gas used)
View attachment 14509

The stock engine tolerances from the factory were: 0,0225' (top ring).
That was a huge gap 4,5 times the Mahle Motorsport spec and explains the oil consumption from brand new. It also indicates that it is not due to wear because the oil consumption was extremely stable from 0 to 44k miles.
I don't know if all of these engines have the same tolerances, maybe mine was built on a Saturday night!

Also, all of the leak-down tests I have done previously indicated a 40% blow by (green region=acceptable is 20-40%).
Yesterday I did a leak-down test to the new assembled engine...
With 7bar air input I get 5% blow by on all 4 cylinders which practically is very tight!
No one noticed that? Thepenl you said that you used Blown gas tolerances. So If we follow manufacturer instructions, what we have is:
bore (yours is 77.5mm -> 3.0511") x 0.0050" = 0.0152". You forgot to make the multiplication.
So factory tolerance is 1.4 times the Mahle spec and explains that your car was built on a working day for sure.
Hope that this was just your mistake and had nothing to do with the garage you rebuild the engine. Otherwise... ::getcoat::

Reducing blow-by by 35% with 0.0073" smaller ring gap, when you'll be on WOT at 4th-5th-6th gear, running 800 C EGT, the ring gap will close at least 0.001" which means you will have 4.7% less blow-by. Keep also in mind that your engine is new and when your rings sit properly on break-in period, you will have better sealing! As Nickbmw said you will flerting with a piston/ring detonation... Do not forget how many stock r56 have piston detonation issues caused to the 2nd ring, with stock tolerances!
I think that either the leak-down test results are crap, or the second ring is too tight Hmmm. Maybe both. It's the first time in my life that I've seen the second ring with less tolerance that the first one. JE, Wiseco, Cp, always have the second ring with bigger gap than the first. Except some Nitrus occasions.

Anyways. Forged internals have nothing similar with factory ones. They have totally different behaviour on heating up and cooling down. Even with the same tolerances, you would notice different oil consumption. Which oil did you use before the engine rebuild and which are you going to use regularly? Meaning grade.
IMO you will see higher oil consumption due to the forged internals.
 

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Themis
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Discussion Starter #469 (Edited)
No one noticed that? Thepenl you said that you used Blown gas tolerances. So If we follow manufacturer instructions, what we have is:
bore (yours is 77.5mm -> 3.0511") x 0.0050" = 0.0152". You forgot to make the multiplication.
So factory tolerance is 1.4 times the Mahle spec and explains that your car was built on a working day for sure.
Hope that this was just your mistake and had nothing to do with the garage you rebuild the engine. Otherwise... ::getcoat::

Reducing blow-by by 35% with 0.0073" smaller ring gap, when you'll be on WOT at 4th-5th-6th gear, running 800 C EGT, the ring gap will close at least 0.001" which means you will have 4.7% less blow-by. Keep also in mind that your engine is new and when your rings sit properly on break-in period, you will have better sealing! As Nickbmw said you will flerting with a piston/ring detonation... Do not forget how many stock r56 have piston detonation issues caused to the 2nd ring, with stock tolerances!
I think that either the leak-down test results are crap, or the second ring is too tight Hmmm. Maybe both. It's the first time in my life that I've seen the second ring with less tolerance that the first one. JE, Wiseco, Cp, always have the second ring with bigger gap than the first. Except some Nitrus occasions.

Anyways. Forged internals have nothing similar with factory ones. They have totally different behaviour on heating up and cooling down. Even with the same tolerances, you would notice different oil consumption. Which oil did you use before the engine rebuild and which are you going to use regularly? Meaning grade.
IMO you will see higher oil consumption due to the forged internals.
Wow, that's one hell of a first post...
Where were you all that time?
Thanks for chiming in...

No, I did NOT forget to make the multiplication on the top gap used.
I made a mistake on the number (0,0225') the gap measured by filler...apparently I divided this number with the bore (which I shouldn't have)...so it's 0,0225*3,051=0,0686' (as measured by filler 1,75mm)
Sadly that fucks up all of your calculations, sorry.

I used, use and will be using Motul 300V series 5-40.

I don't know your experience in engine internals, but the thermal properties of a Wiseco, JE and CP is totally different to a Mahle Motorsport. And that was one of the reasons I chose to go with Mahle. Plus the fact that the lot uses a centered pin, which I didn't want...and the coatings they use look fake compared to Mahle. And the piston slap on cold starts is very noticeable, but with Mahle it's not.
And many other things I can think of, but now it's not the time to discuss them.

There is always a first time in our lives, and from your writings I assume you never used the brand Mahle...
Maybe you should try it and compare it with the others...I did use all of the brands in many projects and think that Mahle differs in many good ways than the lot.
 

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Worth a call to Mahle to confirm the coating on stock and non stock pistons and the block coatings , this will impact clearances .
It could be the root cause of the oil consumption issues and make differences in running in
 

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It's a job to unpick what the original designers were trying to do , low oil pressure on start , low cooling on start , new coatings on block and pistons .
Only OEM designers would have the data , what we do see is the result - the engine can drink oil like a 1950s engine , rattles like a diesel , and makes carbon like a 1930s engine -
Usually new designs are included bit by bit , based on what's known good , radical changes together and you end up with things like the new Boeing Dreamliner - years late , billions over budget , and problem after problem .
Boeing HAVE to put them right ,MINi do not , as history has shown us
BMW must be able to tell you the stock ring gaps with tolerance ,ask them ? Compare with other DI engines with similar coatings and boosted
 

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Wow, that's one hell of a first post...
Where were you all that time?
Thanks for chiming in...

No, I did NOT forget to make the multiplication on the top gap used.
I made a mistake on the number (0,0225') the gap measured by filler...apparently I divided this number with the bore (which I shouldn't have)...so it's 0,0225*3,051=0,0686' (as measured by filler 1,75mm)
Sadly that fucks up all of your calculations, sorry.

I used, use and will be using Motul 300V series 5-30.

I don't know your experience in engine internals, but the thermal properties of a Wiseco, JE and CP is totally different to a Mahle Motorsport. And that was one of the reasons I chose to go with Mahle. Plus the fact that the lot uses a centered pin, which I didn't want...and the coatings they use look fake compared to Mahle. And the piston slap on cold starts is very noticeable, but with Mahle it's not.
And many other things I can think of, but now it's not the time to discuss them.

There is always a first time in our lives, and from your writings I assume you never used the brand Mahle...
Maybe you should try it and compare it with the others...I did use all of the brands in many projects and think that Mahle differs in many good ways than the lot.
Hell yeah its the first post. I'm tryin not to write in forums.. It's your mistake, do not tell me I fucked up with the calculations. I have my car running good for over 2 years with forged internals built with my fucked up calculations. I was willing just to help you.
In my opinion, there is no way your car has 0.0686" ring gap. Your rings should have several damage on their perimeter to open so much. Either you don't want to admit your fault, or you measured wrong.

As for your concerns.. I've never used Mahle motorsport internals. The most recent example I heard from a dude in central EU, that rebuild his jcw motor with mahle pistons, garrett 2860rs, running 23psi. and had a piston detonation. Thanks god without screwing the cylinder. Since March 2012, the car is running wiseco internals, with just the same setup, and even more aggressive map, without any problem at all. 346bhp, 45lb/ft.
And just for the record. The piston slap is due to the rings. Go with a Wiseco piston with zero tolerance and you'll hear nothing. A little more ring gap and you'll here piston slapping.

The reason for writing up, is that during the whole project you kept being over any opinion and over everyone. Keep your eyes closed and listen to no one. It's your own project, do whatever you want to. IMO thsi thread is just a demonstration of you, your financial abilities and your ego brain. I'm so sorry for interrupting you from your fantastic calculations. Go on. You have the greatest mini ever fixed. The most evolving one. Have a nice day.
 

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Themis
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Discussion Starter #474
Hell yeah its the first post. I'm tryin not to write in forums.. It's your mistake, do not tell me I fucked up with the calculations. I have my car running good for over 2 years with forged internals built with my fucked up calculations. I was willing just to help you.
In my opinion, there is no way your car has 0.0686" ring gap. Your rings should have several damage on their perimeter to open so much. Either you don't want to admit your fault, or you measured wrong.

As for your concerns.. I've never used Mahle motorsport internals. The most recent example I heard from a dude in central EU, that rebuild his jcw motor with mahle pistons, garrett 2860rs, running 23psi. and had a piston detonation. Thanks god without screwing the cylinder. Since March 2012, the car is running wiseco internals, with just the same setup, and even more aggressive map, without any problem at all. 346bhp, 45lb/ft.
And just for the record. The piston slap is due to the rings. Go with a Wiseco piston with zero tolerance and you'll hear nothing. A little more ring gap and you'll here piston slapping.

The reason for writing up, is that during the whole project you kept being over any opinion and over everyone. Keep your eyes closed and listen to no one. It's your own project, do whatever you want to. IMO thsi thread is just a demonstration of you, your financial abilities and your ego brain. I'm so sorry for interrupting you from your fantastic calculations. Go on. You have the greatest mini ever fixed. The most evolving one. Have a nice day.
Wow, slow down cowboy...take your time and re-read what I wrote...you obviously got it wrong (no offense intended)!

You'll probably wait now to tell you FUCK OFF...but I won't, and you know why? Because I'm here to share my venture, not to start throwing shit into other's faces. You are welcome to share with me your thoughts and opinions, that's the reason for writing in a public forum, otherwise I would have kept all of this for myself.
You don't know me in person, I am just the project guy for you, so give the old man a break, will you? I am not here to compare or compete with anyone, I am just having fun, so can't really understand your attitude...
Also, I am not a power addict...not trying to catch fantastic numbers here, just want it to be as custom-made as it can get according to my taste.
What's your friend's piston detonation got to do with my engine? I don't understand...Good for him to run that much power...I couldn't drive it, I admit it!!!

What's wrong with being over everyone? You are going to blame me now for the lack of info this forum has regarding the R56 engine? I would love to see free info from other's project threads and learn...BTH why don't you show me your detailed project? Is it a secret?

This thread is a demonstration of my Mini.
I keep my eyes and ears opened all the time and learn something new everyday as I get older.
My financial abilities don't concern you.
I am not an egoist, on the contrary I am open minded.
Don't you worry, no hard feelings for your aggressiveness, I know reading just a post is totally different from discussing face to face.
My Mini is not the greatest ever...it's far from great actually...only 250bhp is the target!

I wish you a very nice evening too Sir...

ps: loose the attitude, it's useless...we could be friends you know...
 

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MIN-Tily Challenged
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no chance of me being in a R56 anytime soon, so no experience to add to this discussion

i just see this thread as a guy doing his own thing, but showing us the "Thinking" behind his choices, [ not as this is the only way to do it as others may post]

im enjoying the journey with Thepeni in this and with occaisionally others in the very few R56 "performance" threads

i think your reply is spot on old chap :thumbup1:
 

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As for your concerns.. I've never used Mahle motorsport internals. The most recent example I heard from a dude in central EU, that rebuild his jcw motor with mahle pistons, garrett 2860rs, running 23psi. and had a piston detonation. Thanks god without screwing the cylinder. Since March 2012, the car is running wiseco internals, with just the same setup, and even more aggressive map, without any problem at all. 346bhp, 45lb/ft.
Does this 'dude' in Central EU have a project thread or a build thread at all?

MINI Torque needs your info but not your piss poor attitude...

As of this moment you are still an 'internet expert' just the same as anyone posting in here so no need to go all Chuck Norris on us :lol:
 

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Well i for one thank all people that contribute to this build as i have learned alot, i too like Themis would like to know more (kkouk) on your recent knowledge and build of a N14 engine so i can have a better choice of poducts for my engine build as some point.

At this present time Themis is really helping the R56 community with the detailed information he provides but if you have equal knowledge (kkouk) please share as we R56 owners really need more detrailed project threads.

Themis you did make me smile " My Mini is not the greatest ever...it's far from great actually...only 250bhp is the target" some what i am not convinced by :lol:
 

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Themis
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Discussion Starter #479 (Edited)
i think your reply is spot on old chap :thumbup1:
Well i for one thank all people that contribute to this build as i have learned alot.
At this present time Themis is really helping the R56 community with the detailed information he provides but if you have equal knowledge (kkouk) please share as we R56 owners really need more detrailed project threads.

Themis you did make me smile " My Mini is not the greatest ever...it's far from great actually...only 250bhp is the target" some what i am not convinced by :lol:
It's nice to see some of you are thinking this way and understand that I am not here to brag about my money and my "great" Mini. I am modest in real life, so if my posts where guiding you in the opposite direction, I do apologize. As none of you have met me in person, it's impossible to see where I'm coming from and WHO I really am...Let's just give you a hint...I've been having fun with various project cars that I owned for the last 20years...I wasn't born yesterday and my life experiences are enough to provide my own 5-member family (shortly No. 5 is coming) all they need.

Actually I was expecting these kind of replies. People get pissed when others talk a lot, give fuck all info, prepare something good, share loads of data, be interesting...it's the common attitude of envious people who enjoy when something bad happens to their neighboor...I have dealt with such people in the past and I know the feeling...

Life is simple though...I don't bother with things I don't like...
If the info I give don't interest people, I will stop it, no problem...honestly guys!

EFA...:lol:
You think I am joking? The target is 250bhp for my everyday commutes, my track time (2013 will be much of that happening), my driving skills, the Greek track potential (there is not much) and the longevity of my car...some of you won't understand it, but that's ok with me...no problem!
 

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Themis i understand your 250bhp figure, but are you prepared to see on a dyno what top power this engine will take, within the limits of sensors and turbo boost ?
 
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