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Going Down!

4K views 59 replies 13 participants last post by  big jim 
#1 ·
Hi all! After some suspension advice/ recommendations please. Not gonna say what's the best/ ultimate? because everyone has their own preferences on this. Been on Lohen's website and have been eyeing up Eibach/ Bilstein's fixed platform B12 kit, but...… I'm not sure a 30mm drop is enough. Next is Bilstein's B14 coilover kit, both are sub £1000 and are non adjustable bump/rebound. The £1000 breaker comes in the form Eibach's pro street S coilover package, again no bump/ rebound adjustment but, not as I'm looking to go down that far, has the adjustment to go -70mm over standard.
So has anyone had any experience of these kits, ride quality etc? Also what are other people running??
This will be going on a daily so obviously I don't want it to ride like a brick - but don't want to pay £££££ for something that's substandard - been there before with coilovers. And pics would be great.
Cheers. Andy
 
#2 ·
I feel like I've seen the Ohlins ones for sale 2nd hand before around your price bracket, I would like to give them a try for a road car.

Billstein are prob a safeish bet.

Going over 30mm drop you're going to get "harsh" daily ride on most coilovers just due to the geometry of things, because;

A - You're going to shorten and compromise damper stroke
B - You'll still need a reasonable spring rate to stop the shorter damper hitting the bump stop or the front bumper crashing into the ground over every speedbump.
 
#3 ·
That's partly why I wanted to go for a full 'kit' from X manufacturer in the hope they will have addressed this, because you can guarantee your £400 Ebay coilover manufacturers haven't. I've never had experience with Bilstein before, for that matter you can include BK, KW, and Eibach, although I've heard nothing bad about Eibach springs I've been kinda put off KW because before I moved there a co worker fitted a set to a Lupo Gti for a customer and found them to be awful. In saying that he cannot remember if they were V1, 2 or 3. Back when - I was aways a Koni man, My Escort van had them fitted and my first Golf Gti had their coilovers on and they were epic! Went Ebay cheap with my next Golf and they were shite! Going off price difference I'm very tempted by the B14 kit as they say it'll go down to -50mm, maybe a little much but there is that room so the shock doesn't bottom out. And I can bring the back down to then match the front because as standard it looks like it's arse is up in the air.
 
#4 ·
I think you'll find the issue regardless, the dampers are by the nature of the car reasonably short anyway, once you lower the car then obviously you're shortening that range even further. I've been through Meister, KW V1's, GAZ and now KW Clubsports. Having experienced all four, if I was to do it again I would be looking to invest a little.

Meister I found the ride to be a bit erratic at times, for want of a better word. They also knocked a bit which other people have also reported.

The KW V1's I liked at first and thought were an improvement over the Meister, however I quickly noticed the softer spring rates, as I was using it on track it wasn't great so I decided to move away, tbh I can't remember them well enough to say whether I would go with them on a road/daily.

GAZ I went with for a number of reasons. The bodies are wider than other brands which I thought might aid damping ability. The spring rates can be custom spec'd. And they can be rebuilt/serviced for cheap. They're also pretty competitive price wise when compared to similar; Meister/BC/Bilstein etc. On the downside, one of the rears caused a really odd and annoying squeaking, which we just could not place and no amount of grease/lube was stopping (It went after I replaced with more KW's). I did get them serviced/rebuilt whilst the car was off the road for a while and the customer service was pretty low end.

KW Clubsports ahhhhh, why didn't I just do this in the first place? Firm but compliant ride. Good spring rates. Well built, nice adjustability. The downside obviously being initial cost, lack of corrosion protection and rebuild/service costs (Which I haven't had to do yet ?). Obviously, unless you've got cash weighing you down they're a bit overkill on the road.

Perhaps if I was building a daily I would look at the 2nd hand Ohlins as above, or probably now KW V2's or ST XTA's. I know people complain about putting £1k worth of suspension on a £2k car but honestly you'll save yourself a lot of frustration, hassle & money in the long run. Buy cheap buy twice. Or four times in my case :LOL:
 
#5 ·
Perhaps if I was building a daily I would look at the 2nd hand Ohlins as above, or probably now KW V2's or ST XTA's. I know people complain about putting £1k worth of suspension on a £2k car but honestly you'll save yourself a lot of frustration, hassle & money in the long run. Buy cheap buy twice. Or four times in my case :LOL:
KW V2's are out and out the best suspension for a road going MINI. I haven't sold parts for about 10 years now and I still have customers running the V2's I sold back in 2008!

For me I agree its a 2k now car but when I got mine it was a 16k car. The same principle applies KW designed them for cars that were 20k+ at the time, they are nothing short of amazing.
 
#7 ·
I’ve just had a set of bilstein B14s fitted to my cooper S, not driven it yet as it’s still at carsorbikes house after he fitted them for me, I got them used off eBay for £250 and apart from one solid adjusting ring Sean says they seem alright

quite simply I couldn’t afford to buy them new, for what I paid for them if they are not what I want then they can come back off

I’ll report back once I get the car back, I’ve not even seen how it looks yet

at the same time those springs were up jn eBay there was a set of KW V1s for £500 with adjustable top mounts and bottom control arms fitted but I couldn’t afford them, shame as I’d have had those over the bilsteins given all the extra bits included
 
#18 ·
I’ve just had a set of bilstein B14s fitted to my cooper S, not driven it yet as it’s still at carsorbikes house after he fitted them for me, I got them used off eBay for £250 and apart from one solid adjusting ring Sean says they seem alright

quite simply I couldn’t afford to buy them new, for what I paid for them if they are not what I want then they can come back off

I’ll report back once I get the car back, I’ve not even seen how it looks yet

at the same time those springs were up jn eBay there was a set of KW V1s for £500 with adjustable top mounts and bottom control arms fitted but I couldn’t afford them, shame as I’d have had those over the bilsteins given all the extra bits included
You managed to pick your motor up from Sean yet? If so what do you think, any good?
 
#11 ·
Adam I was thinking the same..... Luke you've been through a lot of suspension. So Luke you would say that the KW stuff would need, say, a monthly rub down with Wd-40 or such like to keep them tip top? I like the Ohlins idea of having the rear adjusting knob on the bottom of the shock because, although not the hardest job in the world, I can imagine removing, adjusting then refitting of Bilstien, KW etc could get tedious.
Lord did you advise your customers a starting point with adjustment or just let them play?
Jim let me know what the B14's are like please.... with this virus lockdown I doubt I'll get any suspension package anyway. No matter as I've got a few other bits and bobs to be going on with.
Not that it overly matters as it's a road car and because I have epilepsy It's doubtful if they'd allow me to walk on track let alone drive it, but how much difference/ effect does, say, a whiteline rear ARB have?
 
#12 ·
It's only the Clubsports that don't have the coating I believe as they are intended for track/race cars. The ST XTA's are effectively V2's repackaged slightly cheaper I think, someone else will clarify. And no, I don't look after them that much, but neither do I drive the car daily. The way I looked at it was, if you're into looking after your cars and give it a good wax and polish at least every 3 months, have the wheels off to clean etc, then all you need to do is give the suspension a going over with the hose and a brush/soapy water. Like I said, I haven't put a lot of miles on them, but they're over 12 months old and looking fine.
 
#14 ·
Just been back on Lohen's website and it definitely appears to be like KW's economy range, near on same price as a set of V2's but with adjustable top mounts.
Yeh that was me.... clean freak! But with the van and first Golf it was weekly! Would do a 6 day week then spend Sunday washing, polishing, hoovering etc, hate to think how much autoglym I used!
 
#16 ·
Wouldn't know where to begin with spring rates to be honest. I get that a 7lb/mm is a harder spring than a 6lb/mm (or however they're measured) But I think I'd rather have a bit of fit and forgetabillity or else I'd be permanently at work! And I know my boss is a nice guy but I don't wanna take the piss, just in case there is that time I need him to say yes and he doesn't.
And you've touched on something else to, The Eibach springs in their kit will most likely be coated with their usual coating, almost OEM if you like, where as your powder coated springs after a while the coating will crack and will start to corrode the spring.
 
#21 ·
He probably started typing one of his legendary replies about 3 hours ago, still not finished :p

he tells me it handles well, set it up for everyday use, it’s a bit limited by a seized adjusting ring on the rear that thankfully is pretty much in the right place!

also I must have a couple of slow punctures as the tyre pressures were all over the shop, one only had 10psi in apparently, that combined with crappy winter tyres on the front and it understeers (which it did before lowering anyway)
 
#23 ·
I've had B14's on my car since 2013. I bought them used here on MT, and had to have the front shocks rebuilt once due to knock (sliding bearings worn). They have started knocking again, but only when the weather is hot, or after a long hoon in the summer. Started like that the previous time too. I've covered about 120.000km with them so far, including plenty of track days, so they have seen some action. The ride is harsh, there's no other way to describe it. Perfect at high speeds and on the track tho. No need to worry about them bottoming out.
 
#24 ·
The ride is harsh/ crashy on a Cooper S anyways ? And according to realOEM mine was factory fitted with the sports settings + (?) Not sure how true this is and not sure if its a shock upgrade or spring upgrade either?
Think I might be asking to much out of my suspension in all fairness, comfy everyday, then when I wanna go for a hoon track esque performance.
 
#28 ·
I’m running XTA’s and felt at an 8mm spacer minimum was needed with my R90’s and 205/45/17’s. I tried a 5mm spacer and only had about 2mm of clearance between the spring perch and sidewall. I ended up going with 12mm up front for even more clearance and to keep the hubcentric lip, and used the 5’s on the back. My other wheels are ET37 so spacers aren’t needed when I run those.

Without enlarging the hole in the strut tower you can’t get to some of the lock bolts on the top mounts after they’re installed. I don't plan on changing my camber often so I’m not worried about the lack of access to the top bolts and didn’t cut my towers. I figured it would just be like running fixed camber plates, except with the benefit of being able to set the camber to my preference during installation. I’ll just drop the strut enough for the studs to clear the tower to access the lock bolts if needed in the future.

Another thing to think about with ST’s are they only have a galvanized body and not the Inox coating of the KW’s so they might not last long in harsh conditions.
 
#30 ·
Lohen fit my XTAs and didn't need spaces, was on r98s at the time to with 205 tyres.

Tyres were close the the perches but the tyre doesn't flex at the top so I was happy enough and i doubt they would have sent me on my way of there was any chance of contact. Well, I hope not anyway!

I never had any issues and it stayed like that for a couple of month til I got my wheels on.
 
#32 ·
I used 11mm spacers on my kit to clear the perches, they gave around 5mm perhaps but with the better sized (imo) 215/45r17's which being semi slicks on mine are a squarer profile so closer to the perches. I wouldn't have a smaller gap as the carcass does distort to a degree on any tyre, but saying that I've seen 225/45's on stock rims with stock suspension with no evidence of any fouling despite little room especially at the rear inner. Carcass flex maybe less so on a run-flat of course. 11mm looked right and also on R112's were right to just clear the bigger brakes I use, so for me a perfect size spacer. At that time I had none on the rears but currently the 11's are there with 16 on the front due to 225/45's, I will drop the rears to 6mm as they were just rubbing on the outer when I dropped the car a touch more so have raised it again. Originally the car was set ~5mm lower than stock all round, I'm not a fan of slamming the cars or single perch kit really especially with designed drop being what it is on some, and really soft springs, but appreciate some people just want comfort stuff, personally I'd prefer it to come into its own when at a pace than lose composure which some stuff does, of course other factors come into play.
 
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#34 ·
Did you put spacers on Jim's wit the B14's? Because the photos you sent to him he's put up on here that doesn't look to bad a drop. Don't want it doubling up as a lawnmower like some but feel as standard they do look to high.
Might even pop work when the car is back from the autosparks and I've got my pulley and the paint is dry on my brakes ? and pull one side down then refit without the spring so I can get an idea where I wanna be..... actually see how low I need to go.
 
#37 ·
no spacers on Jims,

it's personal opinion all this stuff, these B14's won't go much higher at the front, the springs are a low enough rate that I can compress them several cm off the car by hand, personally I'd prefer kit I could perhaps choose to lower this much rather than have this as a minimum drop, too low for me but the car drives alright, no rubbing, no vibration, it's Jim's car and his first impression was really positive and he likes where it sits, it's a daily he doesn't want to do huge amounts to that he doesn't want looking so nice he worries about leaving it for work so how it is appears to be satisfactory. I do have a very small scope to raise it a touch up front but not really worth talking about. It isn't necessary for a good handling car imo being this low. How the car is now it drives quite well, I took it out again today a bit quicker and I can see why Jim is pleased overall, for some relatively mild changes the car does go very well, it would still with springs a kilo or two up if they were available. As it is some of the potential travel is consumed by the designed drop passively which isn't for me. Twin perch kit can achieve a height you want while retaining most of it. With some budget RCA's to bring in a bit of rear neg camber to no more than -1deg or an R56 trailing arm conversion to help it being adjustable, and some front top mounts to get -1.5 and a better rear ARB with parallel front toe and very minor rear toe in, less understeer which isn't just tyres would be a next step done, then better rubber, and R56S front brakes, for a budget sensible daily Jim would be happy I'm sure ;O)
 
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#39 ·
no spacers on Jims,

it's personal opinion all this stuff, these B14's won't go much higher at the front, the springs are a low enough rate that I can compress them several cm off the car by hand, personally I'd prefer kit I could perhaps choose to lower this much rather than have this as a minimum drop, too low for me but the car drives alright, no rubbing, no vibration, it's Jim's car and his first impression was really positive and he likes where it sits, it's a daily he doesn't want to do huge amounts to that he doesn't want looking so nice he worries about leaving it for work so how it is appears to be :unsure::unsure:W(y). I do have a very small scope to raise it a touch up front but not really worth talking about. It isn't necessary for a good handling car imo being this low. How the car is now it drives quite well, I took it out again today a bit quicker and I can see why Jim is pleased overall, for some relatively mild changes the car does go very well, it would still with springs a kilo or two up if they were available. As it is some of the potential travel is consumed by the designed drop passively which isn't for me. Twin perch kit can achieve a height you want while retaining most of it. With some budget RCA's to bring in a bit of rear neg camber to no more than -1deg or an R56 trailing arm conversion to help it being adjustable, and some front top mounts to get -1.5 and a better rear ARB with parallel front toe and very minor rear toe in, less understeer which isn't just tyres would be a next step done, then better rubber, and R56S front brakes, for a budget sensible daily Jim would be happy I'm sure ;O)
We will have, when fitted, JCW R53 Brembo drilled and grooved discs with HP2000 fronts and standard rears, full compliment of Hankook Evo 2's in 205/45/17 size. Engine wise atm ST injectors although I don't like their fit, so am waiting for some OE 380's to arrive, Airtec TMIC, see what you mean about the weight! Jesus they're heavy! A -15% KAVS coming (Not to keen on the guy's attitude with regard to possible failure/ slippage of the pulleys but I don't know about the back stories about what's been said previous but I like the idea of a four bolt design as apposed to the Alta's three bolt..... so I'm taking a chance) belt, tensioner assembly and idler pulley. Might ring Lohen up tomorrow to see if they have stock of the Alta induction kit? Give the bank account time to recover from there for a bit! ?
But as said previously I don't want a lawnmower, I want a daily that can give me the bigger grin factor than it does atm.
So you would say some adjustable top mounts to suite maybe? Any to recommend and any to stay away from? Not to keen on cutting into the top plates IF I can avoid it. Have looked into the R56 rear subframe/ axle swap..... on the face of it you get four gains for not much outlay, minimal time off road (get the new axle ready first!) , weight saving due to the arms material, don't have to outlay on adjustable control arms extra, anti corrosion protection on the subframe itself. Seems a win win.
 
#42 ·
As mine is Chilli red all I can say is I'm in both love and awe! :love: Take it you've put spacers on the back too to pop the back wheels out to suite? From the photos the height difference is ever so subtle and possibly accentuated by the spacers. It is slightly had to tell but are you running a stud conversion too?
How do you boys go on with lacquer peel over there? Mine is at the stage where paint is a very real option, made more real by being shown some photos of the roof before it was wrapped in black vinyl ? Was a red/ red factory car which I've not seen to many of tbh, initially was gonna paint it red/ black but seeing the red/ white combo it does really suit the car (and heritage) (y)
My £2k 'bargain' is slowly turning into another money pit! Good job I'm single! ?
 
#49 ·
The pics are from about 7 years ago, doesn't look as nice anymore. :LOL: But thanks. And yeah, I had spacers all around for symmetry. Didn't have a stud conversion back then (did it later), just black bolts and weirdly shaped wheel centers.

Personally I'm a big fan of red with black roof, gives the car a meaner look. I have thought about having my roof and mirrors painted, but first I need to save up for having the bonnet and my new bumber painted and the rust spots fixed and the engine is going to need a rebuild at some point... :rolleyes:
 
#43 ·
I'd stick to plain discs personally and wouldn't use R53 fronts at all, the increased surface area of R56S front pads on the slightly larger discs gives a very different braking experience, fancy discs won't improve that really, if it's a road car I'd stick to BMW value line pads, ebay the sensor, ECP pagid or Brembo discs and even standard R56 hoses if you don't want the cost of braided. Very slightly longer pedal but offset by brake performance.

I also wouldn't bother with an intake, if you're not aiming for high power just a simple K&N element will serve for what the engine wants, or there are versions of the standard enclosed box.

I don't know about the R56S subframe stuff, you don't need that, just the trailing arms and a few bolts. I'ts a good time to move to R56S rear brakes with nicer calipers, just needing later cables or make the 53 ones fit which isn't my thing.

Tyres all I can say is 215/45r17. Should have been factory spec.

Red car red roof would look smart, black roof also because it's different, tbh if the paint is smart they all look good don't they, especially if they have sun protection glass imo. I'd have an all red one if I could find one how I'd want it, cheap and broken engine or gearbox with the right spec would be ideal haha
 
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#44 ·
Everything is here now ?‍♂ Calipers are having a lick of paint atm. So whats the score with the rear calipers then? And do the R56 cables fit like they were meant to be there or is it a bit of a bodge?
Yeh I was thinking red/ red which is why I asked the previous owner what was under the wrap the other day....fair play he was honest and decent enough to send me a couple of photos over...…. not gonna lie, it's not good! ?
 
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