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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello again!

I have a big problem with the catcams 469 profile camshaft on my facelift R53 and I want your opinion and help!

So to start with my mods are:

-17% reduced pulley
-Ported and polished cylinder head
-Catcams 469 profile camshaft
-Orranje stealth intake with K&N Air filter
-Bypass valve stronger spring
-Supersprint 4-2-1 header with 100cps free flow catalyst and resonated JCW exhaust (63.5mm)
-550cc Bosch injectors
-Pro alloy motorsport intercooler
-bkr8eix sparkplugs

The car came out from engine rebuild and everything is new! We checked the car for air leaks, tmap and map sensors, oxygen sensor, fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, spark plugs, blocked cat, spark plugs wires, coil pack.. Everything! The cars header-manifold glowing with the stock map but also with the tuned map and hesitates- stalls when starting to move in first gear when you are in positive low boost. If you try to start gently with vacuum its starts to move nice! The hesitation occurs when the cars water temp is below 70 degrees. When is hot it's just only glowing the manifold. We set the 469 timing on tdc like the OEM camshaft. Now we tried to retard the timing one tooth. The car now with the Oem injectors(320cc) runs fine and starts moving fine but still slightly glowing red the manifold (not like before we changed the timing).

No we are waiting to tune again the car and see how its going! One thing that you have to know is that the car when tuned with this setup and the tdc oem timing managed to make 247 crank hp but with the symptoms tha I referred above..

Do you believe that an adjustable camshaft sprocket will give a solution to our problem or is there something else that we have to check for??

@CarsOrBikes already helped me a lot on an erlier discussion but I didn't managed to tell him the whole story!
 

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Hesitation from standstill is not uncommon for the 469, especially when engine is not up to normal temp. It can be made a bit better with tuning, and raising the idle helps too. I've learned to live with the occasional hiccups, and I have set idle in my tune to 1300rpm until about 75°C water temp is reached (partly because I'm running on E85, another can of worms there). Timing the cam may help, but then you will most likely lose something up top. Maybe a milder cam would be a better solution?

As for the glowing manifold... I'd say it's running too lean.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I am uploading also the remap-dyno for you to see. the car had these problems that I told you after this remap-dyno! After that we gave the one tooth retard timing solution.. We have also changed tuner and we will see what happens!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hesitation from standstill is not uncommon for the 469, especially when engine is not up to normal temp. It can be made a bit better with tuning, and raising the idle helps too. I've learned to live with the occasional hiccups, and I have set idle in my tune to 1300rpm until about 75°C water temp is reached (partly because I'm running on E85, another can of worms there). Timing the cam may help, but then you will most likely lose something up top. Maybe a milder cam would be a better solution?

As for the glowing manifold... I'd say it's running too lean.
Correct me if I am wrong but when retarding the timing you don't lose low end??
 

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I think this would be better in one thread fwiw
 
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I run a cam with high overlap on my r53, similar mods BVH, intake/exhaust/header/17% the cam is a R50 PH3. To fix idle and tip-in I did the following with the stock siemens ECU.

Increase advance at idle
adjust vacuum VE tables, quite a bit less airflow under vac
adjust boost ve tables, quite a bit more air under boost
adjust partial throttle fuel mapping once I had VE close, I should have set everything to 1 and done it all with VE but hindsight is 20/20

the transition from vac to boost was very hard to tune with the stock ECU, any more than a easy tip in would result in a lean spike, sputters, stall prior to my changes

my tune could probably use more work but I no longer stall it when leaving stop signs and I no longer have random idle hunt/stall
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I run a cam with high overlap on my r53, similar mods BVH, intake/exhaust/header/17% the cam is a R50 PH3. To fix idle and tip-in I did the following with the stock siemens ECU.

Increase advance at idle
adjust vacuum VE tables, quite a bit less airflow under vac
adjust boost ve tables, quite a bit more air under boost
adjust partial throttle fuel mapping once I had VE close, I should have set everything to 1 and done it all with VE but hindsight is 20/20

the transition from vac to boost was very hard to tune with the stock ECU, any more than a easy tip in would result in a lean spike, sputters, stall prior to my changes

my tune could probably use more work but I no longer stall it when leaving stop signs and I no longer have random idle hunt/stall
Thanks for the info! Did you had high egts - lean condition on idle? With the stock map I was seeing 70% load on 750rpm idle! What load did you see on yours before the tune?
 

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Can you idle a 469 at 750rpm? I thought most were around 900rpm to be smoother.

Also I had an issue with my supercharger-side MAP sensor that caused a glowing manifold, with some poor idle and difficulty starting as well. If you can briefly 'borrow' one from someone as a test that may be worth ruling out. I'd say precat blockage but as you've got a 4-2-1 header on it that won't be the issue! :unsure:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Can you idle a 469 at 750rpm? I thought most were around 900rpm to be smoother.

Also I had an issue with my supercharger-side MAP sensor that caused a glowing manifold, with some poor idle and difficulty starting as well. If you can briefly 'borrow' one from someone as a test that may be worth ruling out. I'd say precat blockage but as you've got a 4-2-1 header on it that won't be the issue! :unsure:
I was idling at 750rpm without tune but stalling and shut downs happened sometimes! Imagine that I broke-in the motor without tune.. Map and Tmap sensors replaced and still the same problem. Cat is ok! Today the car will start with the new tune base map with raised idle at 950rpm and some tweaks! Hope everything goes well! I will keep you informed!
 

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Thanks for the info! Did you had high egts - lean condition on idle? With the stock map I was seeing 70% load on 750rpm idle! What load did you see on yours before the tune?
I see high calculated loads at idle, but not going lean. It should be at closed loop at idle, so if you're seeing a lean condition then, maybe it's the lambda sensor failing...
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Innovate shows 14,7-15,2 afr on idle! Also the short fuel trims is -20% to -28% and leaning out the mixture! The AFR with unplugged the oxygen sensor is around 12-11 ratio. We have replaced today an other one oxygen sensor and still the same! I made some logs with Filipe Frango's Xcode datalogger for you to see. One is cruise and the other is a cold start idle for everyone to see and help if its possible!


The 2 files is csv format in order to open them!
 

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So it's not a lean condition, just the fuel trim going negative as the lambda sensor is correcting the mixture. I wouldn't worry about short term fuel trims too much anyway. Rather see where the long term fuel trim starts to go to. From your city cruising log the the average short term is around -8, but that's just from what, 3-4 minutes of log?

If you disconnect the lambda sensor, then it'll default to quite rich idle, 12-11:1 AFR like you've seen. Kind of a fail safe I think. Not an indication of an issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
So it's not a lean condition, just the fuel trim going negative as the lambda sensor is correcting the mixture. I wouldn't worry about short term fuel trims too much anyway. Rather see where the long term fuel trim starts to go to. From your city cruising log the the average short term is around -8, but that's just from what, 3-4 minutes of log?

If you disconnect the lambda sensor, then it'll default to quite rich idle, 12-11:1 AFR like you've seen. Kind of a fail safe I think. Not an indication of an issue.
Yes it was for a few minutes! My main concern is that in idle the short fuel trims going to negative 25%... And the manifold glows red but the afr is 14.7 to 15.2 ratio! Now we put the base map that my tuner send us but the tune hasnt finished yet. The hesitation and stall gone away with the new base map with 1000rpm idle and the car drives good except tha needs fine tuning after logging some runs. Our only problem is that the manifold still glowing red at idle... We checked averything on the car as I said before.. Is there any posibility that my tuner can fix the glowing manifold situation on idle?
 

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Manifold glowing red at idle with 14.7 AFR should not be possible. Not unless the cat is blocked, or possibly cam timing is way off. But it would run like shit. Is the wideband calibrated properly?

Short term fuel trim is not important here. It's usually all over the place. It will translate to long term fuel trim over time, and if that starts going past -20%, then look in to it. At -25% it'll throw a "running too rich" error code. This can often happen if bigger injectors are installed without changing the parameters in the tune. Or if the fuel maps are altered where they shouldn't be.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Manifold glowing red at idle with 14.7 AFR should not be possible. Not unless the cat is blocked, or possibly cam timing is way off. But it would run like shit. Is the wideband calibrated properly?

Short term fuel trim is not important here. It's usually all over the place. It will translate to long term fuel trim over time, and if that starts going past -20%, then look in to it. At -25% it'll throw a "running too rich" error code. This can often happen if bigger injectors are installed without changing the parameters in the tune. Or if the fuel maps are altered where they shouldn't be.
The car checked again for correct timing and its ok. Cat also checked and its ok! The car is running fine on the road! The afr gauge is 2 months old and calibrated as innovate instructions showing! I had also a running rich error but disappeared! Do you think I will do harm to the exhaust valves and engine componets running it like this?
 

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Are you still retarded a tooth?
 
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Manifolds should be glowing at idle. FWIW I have my idle set at around 13.5:1 as that's what it likes

Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk
 
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