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Would you not be better going in at the other side of the air temp/pressure sensor? It would be closer to the stock set up in terms of what the ECU is expecting. Mapping codes out is fine until you need them for diagnosis.

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Prior to this setup, the DV was located just above the FMIC inlet, dumping into the same location as shown above. This produced DV codes randomly. Before using a metal ICI pipe, I had the DV in the location shown --- easier to install but it worked fine. I didn't think the location relative to the sensor would be significant, and adding a "T" to the metal pipe is a one-time event, so I chose the previous spot that worked properly.

Since "closer to what the ECU expects" didn't work for me, I chose to stay with what did work, ignoring how it looks. And I agree with you about the code being useful for diagnosis. I'm not likely to ever get another map, but if it happens, I shouldn't need to have this code over-ridden if it doesn't happen any more.
 
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30 psi aren't a Problem even on an open deck. I have to correct you there.

I did 5000 km now with 30psi and it holds up even on the stock Pistons.

The good thing about boost is that it doesn't raise the peak cylinder pressure much, it just makes the area under the curve bigger.

Running too much timing resulting in knock breaks pistons and cylinder liners. To break this kind of things boost isn't simply enough.

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I made my statement about 30PSI based on discussions with others much more knowledgeable on the subject than me. Some of their comments can be viewed starting with post #6 in this thread --- From the Baddest to the Deadest - North American Motoring Rather than hijack this thread and argue about 30PSI boost, I suggest Geoff read the applicable parts of my referenced thread and make his own decisions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #123 ·
Prior to this setup, the DV was located just above the FMIC inlet, dumping into the same location as shown above. This produced DV codes randomly. Before using a metal ICI pipe, I had the DV in the location shown --- easier to install but it worked fine. I didn't think the location relative to the sensor would be significant, and adding a "T" to the metal pipe is a one-time event, so I chose the previous spot that worked properly.

Since "closer to what the ECU expects" didn't work for me, I chose to stay with what did work, ignoring how it looks. And I agree with you about the code being useful for diagnosis. I'm not likely to ever get another map, but if it happens, I shouldn't need to have this code over-ridden if it doesn't happen any more.
Hey Walt,

So I'm probably going to keep the stock ICI pipe in except add in an aluminium 90deg pipe with BOV and run the vacuum hose just a short distance to the adaptor in the inlet manifold.

When I installed the Turbosmart compact shortie, they give you a plug in to fool the ECU. Completely forgot about that little nugget of information.

So am I right in assuming I don't need any other BOV or diverter valves located for when I run the GTX?

Cheers.

Geoff.
 

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By "90deg pipe" do you mean a "T" pipe / hose, and in a similar location as mine? If so, that should be OK for either a BOV or DV.

Fooling the ECU with the plug from Turbosmart will only let the ECU think you still have the OEM DV. It will NOT eliminate the malfunctioning DV codes, like the one I used to get between shifts, before finding a good location for the DV.

And, correct, there are no other BOV / DV gadgets needed for the GTX. Also, with the GTX, you can eliminate the WG vacuum tank located below the manifold, and the associated hoses. Pretty sure the WG actuator valve needs to stay connected to the ECU, unless you can find another "dummy" plug. Makes for a slightly neater engine bay.

Then you might want to think about adding a boost controller, if you want to achieve more than the GTX WG actuator allows. This can be added after you grow accustomed to the new setup.
 

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Discussion Starter · #125 ·
By "90deg pipe" do you mean a "T" pipe / hose, and in a similar location as mine? If so, that should be OK for either a BOV or DV.

Fooling the ECU with the plug from Turbosmart will only let the ECU think you still have the OEM DV. It will NOT eliminate the malfunctioning DV codes, like the one I used to get between shifts, before finding a good location for the DV.

And, correct, there are no other BOV / DV gadgets needed for the GTX. Also, with the GTX, you can eliminate the WG vacuum tank located below the manifold, and the associated hoses. Pretty sure the WG actuator valve needs to stay connected to the ECU, unless you can find another "dummy" plug. Makes for a slightly neater engine bay.

Then you might want to think about adding a boost controller, if you want to achieve more than the GTX WG actuator allows. This can be added after you grow accustomed to the new setup.
This is what I was referring to as 90deg.. it's probably not the right way to describe it. I currently have it as a Forge silicone hose as the "noise maker delete". I was of the understanding that this connected to my map sensor adaptor would work fine as the BOV.

So just so I understand a bit better, right now the original DV is out and in the bin, and the Turbosmart is in the hybrids housing. Because it's run via mechanical vacuum the plug in is there to tell / fool the ECU it's still a stock DV? Is there potential harm to be done to the engine then?

If it works in this current setup in telling/fooling the engine what would change if left plugged in?

I've never since ditching the electronic Turbosmart in favour of the mechanical version had any CELs.

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I'll have to do some picture searching for WG vacuum tank under the manifold.. presumably inlet?

Yep once the car is built, had a retune, I'll definitely be looking for some sort of boost controller. Ideally an electronic controller.

Thanks.
 

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This is what I was referring to as 90deg.. it's probably not the right way to describe it. I currently have it as a Forge silicone hose as the "noise maker delete". I was of the understanding that this connected to my map sensor adaptor would work fine as the BOV. This appears to be the correct way to install an external BOV. I can't say for sure because I'm using a DV --- same location but added plumbing.

So just so I understand a bit better, right now the original DV is out and in the bin, and the Turbosmart is in the hybrids housing. Because it's run via mechanical vacuum the plug in is there to tell / fool the ECU it's still a stock DV? Is there potential harm to be done to the engine then? The plug is "fooling" the ECU into believing an OEM DV is in place. If an OEM / hybrid turbo is installed with this Turbosmart BOV, the BOV must be plumbed properly to function correctly. Having never seen this Turbosmart unit up close, I believe that when installed IN a turbo it will perform as a DV. When installed as shown, it only performs as a BOV.

If it works in this current setup in telling/fooling the engine what would change if left plugged in? I believe you would have both a DV and BOV. Probably not synchronized, and possibly causing more boost lag. Again, no experience with this unit.

I've never since ditching the electronic Turbosmart in favour of the mechanical version had any CELs. Probably working correctly as installed. I'm trying to help with a GTX install --- very little similarity to a hybrid / OEM turbo install.

View attachment 102452

I'll have to do some picture searching for WG vacuum tank under the manifold.. presumably inlet? Yes, just follow the small diameter hoses from the WG Actuator and Vacuum pump. They go directly to the WG controller and tank.

Yep once the car is built, had a retune, I'll definitely be looking for some sort of boost controller. Ideally an electronic controller. Get the retune AFTER a boost controller --- more cost-effective.

Thanks.
Whose engine bay is shown in this pic? Snow WMI, RPM manifold, Turbosmart BOV --- looks like it should be a nice performing car if it has other associated mods.
 

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Discussion Starter · #127 ·
Whose engine bay is shown in this pic? Snow WMI, RPM manifold, Turbosmart BOV --- looks like it should be a nice performing car if it has other associated mods.
Thanks for the answers Walt, will do some.more checking. This is Abraham's car, the guy from Speedtech Motorsports in the US.

Just a recap to the ceramic coating discussion, I went down an Instagram story rabbit hole and came across this company who do thermal wrapping. Not fully up to speed on how they do it, possibly welding the materials around said manifold / turbo etc but I've seen they compare heat loss from 5% on ceramic coating to 70-80%. Pretty amazing if that's true

 

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Thanks for the answers Walt, will do some.more checking. This is Abraham's car, the guy from Speedtech Motorsports in the US.

Just a recap to the ceramic coating discussion, I went down an Instagram story rabbit hole and came across this company who do thermal wrapping. Not fully up to speed on how they do it, possibly welding the materials around said manifold / turbo etc but I've seen they compare heat loss from 5% on ceramic coating to 70-80%. Pretty amazing if that's true

If wrapping is too thick, there might be problems routing the oil drain and the rear (inside) coolant hoses --- down to the oil cooler area. Try to get pics of how it's done and what it might look like before committing to a wrap. Oops, didn't check the link. Maybe do a trial-fit with hoses before committing?
 
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Discussion Starter · #129 ·
Evening all, it's been a while! Hope everyone is doing well. Just a little update on the car. I'm booking the car in with Brands Hatch Performance for the turbo install, manifold, meth and direct port meth kit with Turbosmart boost controller so it's done and I can get on with things.

In the meantime today I've put the Alta camber arms on and a vibratechnics gearbox mount.

Have to say the gearbox mount is far more racecar than the powerflex add on to a stock gearbox mount. Only went on this afternoon so need to give it a proper run but much more vibration at idle and very low RPMs. Much improved feel though when lifiting off so very little slack which is what you'd want I guess.

Couple of pics..

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Had no idea the stock arm was like this! 😬
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Had no idea the stock arm was like this!
Kinky

When you set up the alignment then the toe is adjusted by moving the front trailing arm bracket on slotted holes. You can do it without the special tool but it does make it much easier.


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Discussion Starter · #131 · (Edited)
Afternoon! So time is ticking away and I'm swamped with rebuilding my gym due to some flood damage and don't have any time to get all the parts in that I wanted to.

The car is in with Clint at Brands Hatch Performance just two mins away from the circuit. Getting everything fitted and finalised so I can go and enjoy it.

So fitting the:
Snow Performance stage 2 kit
Speedtech Motorsport Direct Port Meth kit
Taking off the Turbo Systems hybrid and JCW manifold
Installing the Garrett GTX2860r
SAS trust manifold
Custom pie cut 3" downpipe to stock JCW exhaust
Turbosmart BOV
Turbosmart EBoost2 controller

The only pics I have so far are of the direct port meth kit going in. Will keep the thread updated as I get more pics.

Interestingly, I think I may have a couple of reasons for the lower Dyno numbers from a few weeks back. After installing new braided lines I was poking around and noticed that the Forge hose that goes from ICI pipe to throttle body had been rubbing against the bulkhead on a Sharpe edge and had rubbed away a decent amount through the pipe. Couldn't say if it was all the way through so I 3M'd duck tapped 5/6 layers onto that area and refitted it. It seemed to pull a lot cleaner from lower down so a possible boost leak. Then when I got to BHP I noticed that the lower radiator pipe was pushing into the intercooler pipe that connects into the ICI pipe, possibly restricting flow. Both those sections are to be replaced anyway for the new install. The 5th nozel for spraying meth will go just after the intercooler and the Turbosmart BOV will be fitted into custom pipe where the forge once was.

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Excited to get it back and get some logs done before another tweak to the map.

Have a great weekend all!
 

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Discussion Starter · #132 ·
Ahhhh nightmare... So the guys at Brands Hatch Performance are saying there is no space to run a down pipe.

These are the pics.

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I've been talking on FB messenger with Tim Hicks who owns SAS and he's sent me pics of a very similar manifold but with an external wastegate and a similar spec turbo and says it fits although not air con friendly.

Issues I'm seeing with that is from my side the Aircon pump is UNDER the alternator so even if that were removed the alternator is in the way, but not only that but there doesn't seem to be room for the actuator bar and actuator to go onto the turbo without it being in the radiator.

This was Tim's set up.

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Now because this setup is external wastegate the turbo actuator and arm isn't necessary correct?

I can see my 5 bolt to V band is a problem as it adds 50/60mm to the overall length on turbo install but that can be resolved with a 5 bolt flange welded on the end of a downpipe, however I'm struggling for ideas and ways around this.

Any thoughts? I appreciate going custom is never easy but feel a bit disappointed something that's custom made and meant to fit has so many issues.
 

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That's tight. Is there a shorter and fatter radiator that could go in there off another car to give you a bit more space at the top? That exhaust flange is huge, can you not just cut that of and weld on an elbow so you're heading in the right direction? It's either that or put the exhaust out through the bonnet and cable tie the radiator to the front bumper

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Discussion Starter · #134 ·
That's tight. Is there a shorter and fatter radiator that could go in there off another car to give you a bit more space at the top? That exhaust flange is huge, can you not just cut that of and weld on an elbow so you're heading in the right direction? It's either that or put the exhaust out through the bonnet and cable tie the radiator to the front bumper

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Not explored that option to be honest. Have messaged that guy Tim about a slimline radiator and he says that's a good option. It's like all these things, in principle it's all possible but the time and effort when you think it's more plug and play only to find out it's anything but is annoying especially when it's "for a mini r56”.

Yeah the vband I think is going to have to go so I'll just have a 5 bolt flange mated direct to the turbo.
Haha I'd love be to send it out of the bonnet but not sure with no mufflers and a straight pipe it's going to be legal..and then I'd just need to bin the rest of the exhaust!
 

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Looks to me like you need to lose the V-band DP and go to a 5-bolt flange with a custom-made DP. Even then, you might also need to lose the A/C. Too late to get a similar turbo with a V-band turbine flange?

EDIT: For the WG actuator, try rotating the two housings to re-position the WG mechanism, so it doesn't interfere with your fan. Oops, forgot how it connected to the exhaust manifold --- sorry! I had similar problems --- cut up the fan housing and tilted the radiator forward. Still functions but hardly a clean installation.
 
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Discussion Starter · #136 ·
Looks to me like you need to lose the V-band DP and go to a 5-bolt flange with a custom-made DP. Even then, you might also need to lose the A/C. Too late to get a similar turbo with a V-band turbine flange?

EDIT: For the WG actuator, try rotating the two housings to re-position the WG mechanism, so it doesn't interfere with your fan. Oops, forgot how it connected to the exhaust manifold --- sorry! I had similar problems --- cut up the fan housing and tilted the radiator forward. Still functions but hardly a clean installation.
Evening!

So I dropped everything and went to the shop to check on the car. There really isn't any room without some major customisation.
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As you can see over head even without a turbo on all the parts obstructing are clear. The Aircon isn't so much the problem it's the alternator and tensioner that are right in the way. We even offered the turbo up and you could see that with the 5 bolt to v-band adaptor off it's not going to fit and have any decent space for the downpipe to not melt everything.

Also how the turbo sits on the flange the actuator wouldn't line up even if you clocked the turbo. Overall it wasnt going to fit.

I had videos to show but for some reason it's blocking the file extension.

I was FB messaging Tim Hicks owner of SAS Trust and he said it fits, but he was sending me photos of a car owned by Andy Redz who was the development car I believe.
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All very well with the front end off and parts missing.
Turns out Andy said his was extensively modified from an SAS manifold and held back from advising the purchase because he knew it wouldn't work but didn't want to say and badmouth SAS.

I'm guessing I too could make it work but at what cost?

The simplest solution is to run the JCW manifold with an adaptor plate for the turbo and run that for a while. I don't particularly want to drop a thousand euros on a tubi manifold from Greece or from GP garage right now. I'll be out of pocket for some labour as it is with removing the old manifold and turbo wasting time trying to fit the sas and gtx and then having to revert back to what was on there to start with. Guess that's the price you pay modifying.

In other news the water meth system is nearly there.
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Custom ally chassis for the pump and tank.
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OK, my manifold places the turbo flange closer to cyl #4 --- further away from the alternator, but there should still be enough space to fab a 5-bolt flanged DP. Pretty obvious that you gotta lose the 5-bolt to V-band adaptor, if you want to minimize grief. And if the tensioner is still in the way, lose the A/C and you no longer need the tensioner. I found on my installation that a 3" DP wouldn't fit between the A/C and cyl #2 exhaust tube. Have you checked that space for DP clearance?

Also I read somewhere that without A/C, and using a proper sized belt, the tensioner can be removed. Just gotta install the belt with a loosened alternator --- put the belt in place as the alternator is installed. Note that my DP is "angled" away from the tensioner --- I'd need a slightly shorter belt if I removed it.

Don't give up on this manifold / turbo combination. It will be a PITA to install, but you won't believe the performance.

Note I chose V-band for a bit more flexibility in turbo positioning. Same with DP.
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If you're worried about DP melting something, consider getting it ceramic coated. Also note the fan housing "relief" for WG linkage. It can be done, just not as clean as we'd like.
IMG_2365.JPG
 
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That looks much more sensible. Positioning the turbo flange over towards cylinder 4 would be the obvious way to go when fabricating the manifold. I suppose you're stuck with what you've got but it makes it far more difficult. Cutting out room to angle the radiator forward is a good shout.

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Discussion Starter · #139 · (Edited)
Hey guys, so a little update on the car. First things first, I've taken in what's been said about other manifolds and solutions to making it work but I really don't want to cut loose the Air conditioning and then need to get a shorter alternator belt etc. It still remains 95% a daily driver and I'd like to retain the flexibility of as many creature comforts as possible.

With that being said, I've decided to eBay the manifold and in time the Turbosystems and have opted for GMC Racing in Italy for their manifold and downpipe solution. AC and alternator are left un touched and very little fettling is required. It isn't cheap but it provides a great solution to being able to run the GTX turbo. The quality looks top notch and should easily flow more than enough for my requirements.

At least this time I've seen them being installed on other cars and I know for a fact it will fit.

Link to Instagram account - Login • Instagram

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Build time is 15-20 days, and no doubt from a week to receive it assuming it's not held in customs.

Along with the other parts being installed I've had a new ICI pipe fabricated that's going to house the 5th nozel for WM injection just after the intercooler. When the big turbo goes on I'll ask them to fab up some pipe for the bov too. Pretty sure it's 2.25" straight through, beaded ends etc.

Have had quite a lot of interest already from people wanting to know how much it is and if they can buy one. I'm hoping to collect the car today so I'm going to see if they're prepared to fab more of them up to sell.
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It's gonna be great, but just curious that no UK company can offer this kind of fab or will the price be too extortionate.
 
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